Logs for jdev

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[00:04:51] <naw> bear: I heard that you were in charge of taking a look to xmpp.org's services page, what is the status now? can I help with it?
[00:08:17] <bear> sure can - i'm still tracking down where/how - but sure. emailing me is the safest way for me to remember :)
[00:15:13] <naw> /me sends a mail to bear
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[08:09:02] <jonas> where is this "services page"?
[08:09:21] <waqas> !services
[08:09:38] <waqas> xmpp.org/services/ on the old website. Not sure about the new.
[08:10:25] <jonas> ah
[08:10:54] <jonas> i've ment to add our service there. i've had it added two like 3 other such lists, but they all became deprecated
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[09:54:29] <naw> jonas: xmpp.org's page has been outdated since february or so
[09:55:10] <jonas> naw, if i want to submit again, would operators be the place this time?
[09:55:59] <naw> operators mail list has been always the place
[09:56:27] <jonas> well, not before 2008
[09:57:18] <naw> oh, maybe then was the old jabber.org list
[09:57:31] <jonas> yes, there has been a couple of those
[09:57:37] <jonas> and there is the wiki at xmpp.org
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[20:23:27] <ivucica> Hi!
[20:24:23] <ivucica> Anyone knows of some BOSH connection manager that can display more verbose debugging information than "item-not-found" when out-of-order RIDs are accidentally sent?
[20:24:48] <MattJ> Hi ivucica :)
[20:24:56] <ivucica> Hi MattJ :) :)
[20:25:29] <MattJ> I'm afraid I don't know of any - what kind of information are you thinking?
[20:25:47] <MattJ> and I guess it depends where you mean "display"
[20:26:03] <ivucica> I mean at least output to stdout/stderr/logfile :)
[20:26:08] <MattJ> Oh right
[20:26:12] <ivucica> And the information I need is, which RID did I drop?
[20:26:30] <ivucica> I'm trying to work on a web-based XMPP client that'll restore its state upon page switching
[20:26:35] <MattJ> Well Prosody's built-in BOSH logs stuff like that, I know because I wrote it :)
[20:26:53] <ivucica> Ah! Nice!
[20:27:03] <ivucica> I was just looking at it :)
[20:27:24] <ivucica> Well, let's see how difficult it is to install Prosody on Mac :)
[20:27:38] <MattJ> Ask Tobias, he maintains Prosody on OS X :)
[20:31:21] <ivucica> It's quite easy to install -- and, somewhat unusually, the whole installation is... installing the preference pane (for System Preferences panel). Easier and more light-weight than any other server I installed. Tobias, great work!
[20:34:45] <Tobias> yup
[20:34:52] <Tobias> the prefpane is a bit buggy though
[20:35:21] <Tobias> at least in some configurations
[20:35:23] <ivucica> MattJ, after enabling bosh module, I've added this: bosh_ports = { 5280 }
[20:35:31] <MattJ> Correct
[20:35:35] <ivucica> into the configuration. However, I cannot telnet to this port?
[20:35:40] <Tobias> it was my first obj-c project :P
[20:35:41] <MattJ> Restarted?
[20:35:44] <ivucica> Yep
[20:35:53] <ivucica> Tobias: it's still nice work :)
[20:35:57] <Tobias> thx
[20:36:00] <MattJ> Is bosh_ports before any VirtualHost or Component entries?
[20:36:05] <ivucica> Tobias, can you tell me where is configuration stored?
[20:36:08] <ivucica> MattJ: no
[20:36:17] <ivucica> I'll move it
[20:36:17] <MattJ> Move it higher
[20:36:19] <Tobias> inside the PrefPane
[20:36:23] <Tobias> IIRC
[20:36:37] <Tobias> which are essentially just folders
[20:37:09] <ivucica> I looked there; I'm however just starting with Prosody. I'll try to find it :)
[20:37:59] <ivucica> Hm, MattJ, Tobias: This didn't help either. I'll have to check if configuration gets saved at all, that might be my problem!
[20:38:06] <MattJ> ok :)
[20:38:20] <MattJ> Are the logs visible somewhere? (I don't have a Mac)
[20:38:38] <MattJ> it should have warned you about bosh_ports being in the wrong place if so
[20:38:52] <ivucica> I've found prosody.log
[20:39:01] <ivucica> It doesn't mention bosh at all
[20:39:14] <ivucica> Heh
[20:39:21] <ivucica> Looks like configuration is not safed, Tobias :) :)
[20:39:22] <Tobias> you might find the config file at this obvious locatio: ~/Library/PreferencePanes/Prosody.prefPane/Contents/Prosody/prosody/prosody.cfg.lua
[20:39:32] <MattJ> Obviously
[20:39:55] <ivucica> Tobias: I've just looked there -- it was not saved :) :)
[20:39:59] <ivucica> I'll edit it with vim
[20:41:35] <ivucica> Yep, that worked! Thanks, MattJ and Tobias!
[20:41:39] <Tobias> np
[20:41:49] <MattJ> "
[20:41:56] <ivucica> Also, MattJ: you may want to document "officially" that location of bosh_ports is important: http://prosody.im/doc/setting_up_bosh
[20:43:32] <MattJ> Done, thanks :)
[20:43:42] <ivucica> Wow, Prosody is hyper-readable with cool internal organization!
[20:44:05] <ivucica> Previous uses of Lua that I saw made me sorry I saw them... but this is awesome!
[20:44:07] <ivucica> Great work!
[20:44:15] <Tobias> heh :)
[20:44:59] <MattJ> Thanks :)
[20:45:18] <ivucica> Hm, should I file bug reports or report here? :)
[20:45:24] <ivucica> I'll paste privately
[20:45:27] <MattJ> Yes, I've seen some Lua scripts that make me cry
[20:45:32] <MattJ> Sure
[20:47:26] <MattJ> /me frowns at Tobias
[20:47:41] <Tobias> pft
[20:47:41] <MattJ> I need a Mac just to make sure your packages are up to standard ;)
[20:47:54] <ivucica> Use a hackintosh :)
[20:48:16] <ivucica> I've heard the VMware images are quite usable, and should suffice just for testing
[20:48:52] <justin> mac is only legally emulatable on mac :)
[20:49:02] <Tobias> MattJ, won't you have waqas for that :P
[20:49:18] <ivucica> justin: Of course... but, well, this is for the "greater good" :)
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[20:49:57] <MattJ> Tobias, I'm still working on that one
[20:50:12] <MattJ> I'm not going to lose 2 developers to a piece of fruit
[20:52:24] <Tobias> heh :D
[20:53:54] <ivucica> Looks like Prosody likes to play dirty, not supporting PLAIN auth mechanism... :)
[20:53:59] <Florob> You fooled me. I almost thought this was prosody@
[20:56:00] <ivucica> Florob: Ah it isn't? Oh look! It indeed isn't! Sorry :)
[20:56:01] <Tobias> ivucica, it does do PLAIN
[20:56:12] <MattJ> but not without encryption :)
[20:56:13] <ivucica> Tobias: That's not what my client receives :)
[20:56:27] <Tobias> yeah, use a decent client and we'll talk again
[20:56:29] <Tobias> :P
[20:56:32] <ivucica> MattJ: I guess I'll have to find a way to go around it
[20:56:36] <ivucica> Tobias: I'm WRITING a client :)
[20:56:54] <MattJ> ivucica, I hope you plan to support encryption :)
[20:57:12] <MattJ> However: allow_unencrypted_plain_auth = true
[20:57:21] <ivucica> I'm trying to say that this is a Javascript-based client, HTTPS will do the encryption :)
[20:57:38] <MattJ> Ah well, we also have consider_bosh_secure = true :)
[20:57:47] <ivucica> Apache must do some proxying server-side anyways
[20:57:51] <ivucica> Cool! That's it! :)
[20:57:56] <johnny> ivucica, apache? lol
[20:58:05] <MattJ> johnny, nothing wrong with Apache :)
[20:58:06] <ivucica> johnny, sticking with what I know :)
[20:58:22] <MattJ> I'd change to something else, but it's running quite happily
[20:58:23] <johnny> MattJ, well if i was doing a js client, i'd use websockets or prosody's web server
[20:58:24] <ivucica> Plus, for my purposes, it serves me well
[20:58:46] <MattJ> johnny, no JS lib supports websockets (yet)
[20:58:50] <johnny> ah
[20:59:02] <johnny> ivucica, which js lib are you using?
[20:59:05] <MattJ> and because of same-origin you need a proxy, unless your browser supports CORS
[20:59:07] <johnny> and.. where's the src :)
[20:59:09] <ivucica> johnny, I'm writing it to do integration with an existing web site, and cross-domain security protection doesn't allow me to use other servers directly
[20:59:17] <johnny> ivucica, plenty of ways around that
[20:59:21] <johnny> CORS or flXhr
[20:59:36] <ivucica> johnny: a colleague used a bit of JQuery to write UI, and then gave up. I'm personally doing everything without any JS libs (only what browser provides)
[20:59:49] <johnny> ivucica, well you're ging to need to talk xmpp at some point right?
[21:00:05] <johnny> we tend to recommend strophe around here (or did)
[21:00:05] <ivucica> johnny, I already do -- it works with ejabberd's BOSH and with PunJab
[21:00:24] <johnny> you should probably just use strophe
[21:00:28] <ivucica> I'd love to use Strophe -- but my goal is not just to write a client
[21:00:32] <johnny> altho i think they need a new maintainer .
[21:00:42] <ivucica> The web site I'm doing integration with depends on switching pages, which means destroying the context
[21:01:01] <ivucica> I tried inquiring a couple of times in this conference room about a JS-based client that can tolerate this and maintain connection
[21:01:23] <ivucica> In fact, today I came to find a BOSH connection manager that will allow me to debug this restoration feature a bit better
[21:01:40] <justin> at our company we use a non-xmpp communication between browser and edge http server, to support a use case like that
[21:01:47] <ivucica> HTML5's sessionStorage + serialization of state on unload will help me achieve this
[21:01:58] <Tobias> well you could just stor sid, rid in local storage and just resume the session after page swich
[21:02:00] <Tobias> *switch
[21:02:19] <ivucica> justin, I'm trying to make a difference here -- I'm trying to actually do something that will require people just to include a couple of JS files
[21:02:54] <ivucica> So I'm trying to avoid such a solution: I'm scratching my own itch, and at the same time "trying to make the world a better place" :)
[21:02:57] <MattJ> ivucica, you know of Strophe's attach() function?
[21:03:01] <ivucica> Tobias: That's what I'm trying to do
[21:03:04] <Tobias> k
[21:03:07] <johnny> ivucica, strophe already covers your case..
[21:03:32] <ivucica> Tobias: However a bit more of the state needs to be stored: roster list, presences, unsent packet queue, ...
[21:03:39] <justin> i'm all for making the world a better place. :) and you could have a single xmpp session that maintains itself across page changes. it really depends on what your application is trying to do
[21:03:43] <ivucica> johnny, MattJ: I didn't know that :)
[21:03:57] <justin> (for ours, we want a single xmpp session servicing multiple browser tabs, so you can see why our approach might make sense in that context)
[21:04:11] <Tobias> if you're trying to write a basic client, yeah
[21:04:33] <ivucica> justin: Yep, if you want to do that, I see why you took that approach
[21:04:43] <ivucica> I'm satisfied with multiple sessions opened with multiple tabs
[21:06:11] <ivucica> johnny, MattJ: Are there perhaps even finished clients using Strophe in that way? I've tried to find a simple client that emulates Meebo Bar/Facebook Bar, but I think I found only one that I didn't even manage to install, much less configure to maintain state between page changes
[21:06:54] <MattJ> Take a look at http://metajack.im/2008/10/03/getting-attached-to-strophe/
[21:07:03] <MattJ> I don't know which, if any, open apps use it
[21:08:26] <ivucica> Ah, at least I learned something :)
[21:08:44] <ivucica> I think I'll even try to finish my existing client.
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[21:09:36] <MattJ> I wouldn't say no to another library if that's what you want to do :)
[21:09:52] <MattJ> Strophe isn't the best it could be in my opinion
[21:10:02] <ivucica> It does seem however that Strophe cannot serialize itself fully; it can just attach itself to an existing connection "externally created"; that means I still have to keep a lot of state
[21:10:09] <MattJ> Yes, correct
[21:10:38] <ivucica> Heh, MattJ, people probably won't like what I did - I do like it, and they might use the finished client as a drop-in solution, to easily add it to their web site
[21:11:09] <ivucica> I've opened it up, but since it still doesn't do anything that other software doesn't, I'm still a bit shy about it
[21:11:17] <MattJ> I've never used other people not liking something as a reason to not do something, I don't think you should either :)
[21:11:35] <ivucica> :)
[21:12:00] <MattJ> People (I'm looking at johnny especially) tend to shout NIH about everything I do :)
[21:12:33] <ivucica> Haha xD
[21:12:52] <ivucica> Well, in your case, I think you did well by going on with your work
[21:12:55] <johnny> MattJ, i think you have a really really really bad tendency to use projects that have unresponsive upstreams
[21:13:18] <MattJ> johnny, maybe that's all part of the plan so I can use it as an excuse to write my own? :)
[21:13:29] <ivucica> Anyways, if anyone is interested: https://bitbucket.org/ivucica/zxmpp
[21:13:36] <MattJ> hg! \o/
[21:13:43] <johnny> :(
[21:13:50] <johnny> MattJ, i doubt it
[21:14:16] <ivucica> Yep, I found Hg to be awesome for random collaboration once I saw the ease with which server-side clones can be created on Google Code... and later on, I saw BitBucket :)
[21:14:18] <johnny> ivucica, btw i think mattj is pretty awesomee
[21:14:39] <johnny> just so you know
[21:14:45] <ivucica> johnny, you all guys here are awesome :)
[21:15:13] <ivucica> I've started getting into XMPP just a few weeks ago, and I've grown a bit obsessed
[21:15:34] <ivucica> In fact, I've started wondering why aren't we seeing XMPP all over the place, and why some people (Apple, for example) are hiding the fact that they use XMPP
[21:15:34] <Tobias> heh :)
[21:15:57] <ivucica> And I admire everyone who's been doing XMPP ;)
[21:16:09] <ivucica> Tobias, btw, you know what we need to do?
[21:16:13] <johnny> ivucica, yes.. we've been waiting for people like you :)
[21:16:16] <ivucica> Mac is sorely missing one thing.
[21:16:29] <ivucica> Client that supports Jingle video.
[21:16:31] <johnny> i've been following XMPP since 2001 or so
[21:16:42] <Tobias> ivucica, heh, yeah :) it's missing that
[21:16:52] <johnny> ivucica, yes.. the problem seems to be gstreamer mac video output
[21:16:59] <johnny> so it's not really an xmpp problem
[21:17:19] <Tobias> johnny, i think that's been solved, some people from psi+ projekt got a patch working for Psi
[21:17:22] <Tobias> where you have video
[21:17:28] <ivucica> johnny I've started to like XMPP back when Gtalk came out; I never had the will or the programming experience to get into it until now
[21:17:30] <johnny> Tobias, well hope the adium people pick it up
[21:17:40] <ivucica> Also, Gstreamer? Why? :) :)
[21:18:09] <justin> because gstreamer is awesome :)
[21:18:22] <Tobias> yeah, but they'd need to combine it with libpurple's XMPP jingle stuff. and most what's missing there is UI, i mean the logic (jingle, ICE,etc) is already in libpurple
[21:18:28] <ivucica> When someone mentions using primarily-Linux component in a Mac project, I rememeber what I did to DevIL...
[21:18:36] <ivucica> ...I replaced it with CoreGraphics >: )
[21:18:46] <johnny> ivucica, that's terrible
[21:18:49] <johnny> don't ever do it again
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[21:18:55] <johnny> gstreamer isn't linux centric
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[21:19:11] <johnny> linux dev is just where those ideas actually bear fruit initially
[21:19:12] <ivucica> Dunno, I associate it with GNOME, GObject, etc etc
[21:19:27] <MattJ> ivucica, for the record johnny would let me have Prosody depend on DBus :)
[21:19:28] <ivucica> I've never had the will to get into it
[21:19:35] <johnny> ivucica, you're missing out
[21:19:38] <ivucica> *sigh* dbus? really? :)
[21:19:40] <johnny> a stack that works on al sorts of devices
[21:19:58] <johnny> ivucica,it's not productive to work on a stack that only works on one OS..
[21:20:00] <ivucica> johnny: sshh, I'm currently in love with Objective-C
[21:20:03] <johnny> uggh
[21:20:05] <johnny> terrible..
[21:20:11] <MattJ> DBus is ok, a bit over-complicated, but I'm even using XMPP for IPC in some places and it's much easier :)
[21:20:29] <ivucica> Heh, johnny, don't worry: we have GNUStep :) :)
[21:20:34] <johnny> ivucica, because of dbus, the defeault gnome app has default screen sharing with no port forwarding
[21:20:39] <johnny> gnome im app*
[21:21:06] <johnny> dbus is not my favorite, but it's the best we have
[21:21:10] <johnny> and it does the job
[21:21:13] <ivucica> Now seriously, I'm all for portability and I love it whenever possible. I just fear adding layers and layers and layers of dependencies
[21:21:15] <johnny> and it works everwhere
[21:21:25] <ivucica> johnny except where it does not :)
[21:21:26] <johnny> ivucica, you're ignoring all the ones you already have when you think about it like that
[21:21:33] <johnny> those that can be removed
[21:21:37] <johnny> the other ipc layers
[21:21:56] <johnny> i think it's great.. the stack is going places
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[21:22:05] <ivucica> I think I didn't put myself into a proper context.
[21:22:06] <johnny> too bad nokia is so fail
[21:22:12] <ivucica> Let me put it this way.
[21:22:24] <ivucica> Hi. I'm Ivan Vučica, and I'm a game developer.
[21:22:28] <ivucica> (and an occasional web developer)
[21:22:33] <johnny> ivucica, also.. there's a kernel patch for dbus lol
[21:22:48] <ivucica> We don't typically do IPC in game development :)
[21:22:57] <johnny> ivucica, depends on the games.
[21:23:01] <ivucica> Of course!
[21:23:03] <johnny> multiplayer gamescan do it alot
[21:23:06] <ivucica> But I'm saying typically
[21:23:06] <johnny> games can*
[21:23:17] <ivucica> I don't consider sockets typical IPC :)
[21:23:46] <johnny> on the server side . and as mattj says.. he uses xmpp for ipc sometiems :)
[21:23:46] <ivucica> They are IPC... but they're not the first thing I think of when someone mentions IPC
[21:24:02] <johnny> i guess so, but the network is the computer
[21:24:03] <ivucica> On the server side, perhaps
[21:24:16] <johnny> his dream is coming true :)
[21:24:23] <johnny> the network really is the computer
[21:24:34] <johnny> without the internet.. not sure what i'd really use computers for
[21:24:48] <ivucica> Hackin'
[21:24:52] <ivucica> That's what I did :)
[21:25:00] <MattJ> Can't beat it
[21:25:11] <ivucica> Consider this, however: Today, games market has shifted primarily towards casual games which don't really need a multiplayer component
[21:25:37] <ivucica> Occasionally, we have stuff like Farmville that can do all they need to do with HTTP polling.
[21:25:50] <ivucica> Or even worse: just the user-initiated requests are sufficient
[21:26:13] <ivucica> So one does not really need to understand even sockets, and sometimes, one can implement server side fully in... *cries* PHP
[21:26:19] <MattJ> Heh
[21:26:23] <ivucica> It does make hosting the server cheaper, though :)
[21:26:39] <ivucica> Anyways, lemme go back and see what I broke in ZXMPP :)
[21:26:48] <ivucica> And then ... we shall plan how to conquer the world TOGETHER
[21:27:06] <ivucica> MattJ, remind me: bosh_considered_secure = true ?
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[21:27:21] <MattJ> consider_bosh_secure = true
[21:27:33] <Florob> ZUMP!
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[21:27:54] <ivucica> Florob: !PMUZ
[21:29:11] <MattJ> My strategy is a bit different
[21:29:24] <MattJ> I'm writing a Lua VM in Javascript so I can just use all my Lua libraries in the browser :)
[21:31:26] <ivucica> MattJ: Is there a Javascript engine written in Lua? That would make the whole project AWESOME!
[21:31:44] <MattJ> Not yet there isn't :)
[21:32:03] <ivucica> I'm sure you'll think of something :) :)
[21:32:10] <MattJ> I was persuaded to at least leave that project for the timebeing
[21:32:16] <ivucica> Well this sucks: Prosody broke my client :) :)
[21:32:24] <MattJ> Tough luck
[21:32:41] <Florob> There isn't? I thought I had read of such a beast recently (JS in Lua)
[21:33:34] <MattJ> Florob, first I've heard of it, apart from mine
[21:33:48] <MattJ> Who would want to do such a thing, other than me?
[21:33:58] <Florob> well, I might just be imagining things again
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[22:00:14] <ivucica> Goodbye, folks, it's been a very fruitful evening :)
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