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[09:04:44] <Alex> anybody here familiar with the collecta XMPP api?
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[13:22:31] <louiz’> Is there any way to read the reason Why XMPP uses XML. Any technical discussion to make this decision or whatever?
[13:22:50] <louiz’> why XML and not something else?
[13:23:38] <Kev> That dates back to 1999, and I don't know that there's likely to be a public record of it.
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[13:24:53] <louiz’> Ok. But any summary anywhere?
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[13:24:57] <louiz’> In your memory maybe? :D
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[13:25:06] <Kev> I've not been around that far.
[13:25:12] <louiz’> :(
[13:25:15] <Kev> I didn't start using Jabber until 2001.
[13:25:18] <Kev> That far? That long.
[13:26:09] <smoku> louiz’, you have to ask Jeremie Miller - creator of jabber protocol.
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[13:28:08] <MattJ> There used to be an FAQ entry on the site
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[13:28:30] <MattJ> It basically said "There's no point in changing now"
[13:28:39] <MattJ> Which sounds like a stpeter-ism :)
[13:28:55] <louiz’> on THE site ?
[13:28:57] <louiz’> jabber.org ?
[13:30:40] <MattJ> Yes
[13:31:10] <dwd> louiz’, I do know it didn't originally use namespaces - apparently those got added largely retrospectively.
[13:31:14] <louiz’> can't find anything about that in the FAQ
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[13:31:26] <MattJ> louiz’, "There used to be"
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[13:31:38] <louiz’> ok ;)
[13:31:43] <dwd> MattJ, That doesn't explicitly state that there isn't now.
[13:31:54] <MattJ> True, but the site is about the IM service now :)
[13:32:02] <MattJ> The old old site was static pages
[13:32:14] <dwd> MattJ, Maybe we should have an xmpp.org FAQ.
[13:32:22] <MattJ> Possibly, yes
[13:33:00] <dwd> "Why does XMPP use a slightly braindamaged subset of XML?" "For precisely the same reasons that IMAP sues a slightly brain damaged subset of LISP syntax."
[13:34:07] <dwd> I'm sure that would silence people, if only for the innate threat of switching syntaxes from XML to LISP.
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[13:34:58] <dwd> (FYI, the IMAP syntax was cleaned up for ACAP, which as a result is less brain-damaged, but also less LISPy)
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[13:35:41] <dwd> (And equally FYI, we've been trying to make XMPP closer to "true" XML for a while. I'm never wholly convinced this is a good idea...)
[13:36:43] <Kev> I don't dislike LISP.
[13:36:52] <Kev> Although I remember much less than I used to.
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[13:38:45] <dwd> Kev, Trauma does that to you.
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[18:13:16] <justin> awhile back i asked if '@' was allowed in resources. and i think we determined that user@example.com/user@example.com is a valid jid
[18:13:46] <justin> however, is example.com/user@example.com a valid jid? i think this may depend on search order of '@' and '/'
[18:14:36] <MattJ> Yes, it's valid
[18:15:20] <MattJ> That said, it's a corner-case someone found in Prosody's JID parsing not long ago :)
[18:15:24] <MattJ> Hopefully the last
[18:15:46] <justin> is this clear in the spec somewhere?
[18:16:43] <Kev> Should be.
[18:17:13] <MattJ> / isn't valid in the node, so there's no way it can be confused
[18:19:07] <justin> sure, but it is just not very obvious. i imagine most code does a jidString.indexOf('@') to find the node
[18:19:29] <justin> in which case "example.com/user" becomes the node, and it is determined to be invalid and rejected
[18:19:48] <MattJ> Most code is wrong ;)
[18:20:38] <Kev> indexOf('/') is the right thing to do, to strip any resource, and then indexof('@') to split a node off the bare JID.
[18:26:32] <justin> hmm, yes, i guess so. and it seems psi even parses that way already. cool. i wonder who did that
[18:26:52] <Kev> Not me, I rather imagine :)
[18:27:09] <justin> i still think this should be clarified in the spec. it's an easy mistake to make
[18:28:23] <Kev> I read the spec recently and thought it was reasonably clear - which bit do you think needs clarification?
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[18:36:15] <justin> maybe something like: "Implementation note: since @ is an allowed character in the resource, it is important to not mistake the JID "example.com/a@b" as having a node of "example.com/a" with no resource when in fact the JID has no node and the resource is "a@b". In general this means that the resource in the JID should be searched for before the node."
[18:37:37] <Zash> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-address-05
[18:39:40] <justin> from the draft: The '@' character is allowed in the resourcepart, and is often used in the "nick" shown in XMPP chatrooms. For example, the JID <room@chat.example.com/user@host> describes an entity who is an occupant of the room <room@chat.example.com> with an (asserted) nick of <user@host>. However, chatroom services do not necessarily check such an asserted nick against the occupant's real JID.
[18:40:17] <justin> it's a start
[18:42:02] <justin> Implementation Note: When dividing a JID into its component parts, an implementation needs to match the separator characters '@' and '/' before applying any transformation algorithms, which might decompose certain Unicode code points to the separator characters (e.g., U+FE6B SMALL COMMERCIAL AT might decompose into U+0040 COMMERCIAL AT).
[18:43:36] <Zash> ﹫@
[18:44:04] <MattJ> "Muahahahhaa....", etc.
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[19:36:04] <dwd> Evening all.
[19:36:19] <Zash> yo
[19:38:19] <dwd> I'm right in thinking there's no generic timestamp XEP, right?
[19:38:44] <Zash> There's two?
[19:38:52] <Zash> !xep time
[19:38:53] <dwd> I mean, we've got delay, and we've got whichever-xep-it-is-that-points-to-RFC3339, but there's no XEP to say "I sent this at X o'clock"
[19:38:53] <Kanchil> Zash: Multiple matches: XEP-0090: Legacy Entity Time, XEP-0202: Entity Time, XEP-0082: XMPP Date and Time Profiles, XEP-0149: Time Periods
[19:39:32] <Zash> !xep 202
[19:39:32] <Kanchil> Zash: XEP-0202: Entity Time is Standards Track (Final, 2009-09-11) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0202.html
[19:39:41] <Zash> hm, no
[19:40:08] <Zash> !xep stamp
[19:40:08] <Kanchil> Zash: Sorry, I couldn't find a match
[19:40:11] <dwd> What I want is a <delay/> that doesn't semantically mean a delay at all.
[19:41:00] <Zash> !xep 203
[19:41:00] <Kanchil> Zash: XEP-0203: Delayed Delivery is Standards Track (Final, 2009-09-15) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0203.html
[19:41:29] <justin> i think using ISO time is probably fine
[19:41:59] <dwd> justin, Oh, sure. I mean, any timestamp included would be a [xep 202] one. I'm just after a generic wodge of XML to put it in.
[19:41:59] <Kanchil> dwd: XEP-0202: Entity Time is Standards Track (Final, 2009-09-11) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0202.html
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[19:42:33] <dwd> justin, It's mostly for things like [xep 285] and similar - so that replay attacks are somewhat mitigated.
[19:42:33] <Kanchil> dwd: XEP-0285: Digital Signatures in XMPP is Standards Track (Experimental, 2010-09-15) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0285.html
[19:42:54] <dwd> Kanchil, Oh, well done. DOes this mean you know what [xep 288] is now?
[19:42:54] <Kanchil> dwd: XEP-0288: Bidirectional Server-to-Server Connections is Standards Track (Experimental, 2010-10-04) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0288.html
[19:42:57] <justin> dwd: yeah, i guess my feeling is we don't really need a generic timestamp element
[19:42:59] <dwd> Kanchil, CLever lad.
[19:43:17] <justin> i'm happy enough knowing that we use the same timestamp formatting anywhere a timestamp is needed
[19:43:42] <dwd> justin, We've been asked for one by a couple of people, now, plus 285 (and probably the encryption I-D) need it.
[19:44:06] <justin> hmm, but isn't this sort of like asking for XML to represent a JID?
[19:44:08] <Zash> Break 203 into two xeps?
[19:44:14] <justin> just put the damn jid in there however you want
[19:45:05] <dwd> justin, No, not really. The XML blob has a defined semantic beyond the timestamp, after all.
[19:45:31] <justin> is the idea that one should be able to generically locate timestamps within a stanza?
[19:46:49] <Zash> Shouldn't the timestamp be *in the signature*?
[19:47:05] <Zash> or, on the signed data side
[19:47:31] <dwd> Zash, Yes, that's how XEP-0285 currently works.
[19:47:33] <justin> Zash: of course, but that's not really the point
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[19:49:37] <justin> dwd: maybe the problem is just that <delay> is named such :)
[19:50:04] <dwd> justin, Possibly.
[19:50:21] <dwd> justin, Although a TTL might be nice, if we were rolling out an element anyway.
[19:50:41] <justin> yes
[19:50:56] <dwd> justin, Hence "I sent this message at X. If you haven't received it by X+Y, then ignore it"
[19:51:02] <Zash> So, spilit 203 into two xeps, one with <time xmlns="something:timestamp" stamp="%FT%T%Z"/> and one <delay xmlns=".."><time/></delay>
[19:51:42] <dwd> Zash, Hmmm... WHat is it you do for a living? It's not selling forklifts, is it? ;-)
[19:51:53] <dwd> Zash, Seriously, <delay/> is set in stone, and that's fine.
[19:52:15] <Zash> dwd: What you say? You need forklift? Special price, just for you! ;)
[19:52:35] <MattJ> dwd, isn't that AMP?
[19:52:38] <dwd> Zash, Changing it entirely at this stage would be "interesting". We still generate two <delay/> tags for MUC, one of each flavour. I don't want to do three. :-)
[19:52:46] <dwd> MattJ, Except deployable.
[19:52:49] <MattJ> :)
[19:52:59] <MattJ> dwd, but Tiga... never mind
[19:53:23] <justin> heh, this thing is still in the inbox: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/secure.html
[19:53:49] <MattJ> :)
[19:53:50] <justin> section 5 is maybe interesting for reference
[19:54:34] <Zash> Mmmm.. Base64
[19:57:47] <dwd> /me saunters off for food.
[20:04:09] <Kev> I think it's 203 we want, incidentally.
[20:04:22] <MattJ> !xep 203
[20:04:23] <Kanchil> MattJ: XEP-0203: Delayed Delivery is Standards Track (Final, 2009-09-15) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0203.html
[20:04:25] <MattJ> +1
[20:04:33] <MattJ> !xep 202
[20:04:33] <Kanchil> MattJ: XEP-0202: Entity Time is Standards Track (Final, 2009-09-11) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0202.html
[20:04:35] <Kev> 203 is used to say "At the time I first saw this stanza, it was ..."
[20:04:39] <MattJ> Ah, that's why I was confused
[20:04:49] <Kev> If that's stamped by the sender, it's the original sendtime.
[20:04:53] <MattJ> Agreed
[20:05:16] <MattJ> Otherwise the lack of a stamp implies it was sent close enough to "now" that you shouldn't care
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[00:52:34] <Zash> Gah, reading openssl docs makes me more confused :(
[00:55:50] <MattJ> Tip: Don't read OpenSSL docs
[00:56:05] <MattJ> They're either not there, outdated, or just Wrong
[01:03:18] <Zash> :/
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[01:09:33] <MattJ> !version jabber.ohloh.net
[01:09:34] <Kanchil> MattJ: jabber.ohloh.net is running ejabberd version 2.0.5 on unix/linux 2.6.18
[01:09:50] <MattJ> /me slaps Kanchil
[01:09:52] <MattJ> You're not HAL
[01:11:57] <Zash> :O
[01:12:10] <Zash> Don't hurt the little one!
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[01:15:20] <Zash> Does web people misuse CN in certs or what?
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