Logs for jdev

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[07:49:59] <dwd> Ah, so someone else ran into StartCom's bizarre "You MUST enter a subdomain - we'll prompt you with http:// just to make it more obscure as to what we'll use it for". thing.
[07:50:05] <dwd> So utterly stupid.
[07:50:43] <dwd> They then give you a cert with broken sRVName SANs, and random other SANs.
[07:51:11] <dwd> </rant>
[07:51:42] <Guus> yeah
[07:51:50] <Guus> but wasn't there something in their FAQ about that?
[07:53:00] <Guus> ah well, as long as the service is free, you don't hear me complaining to much...
[07:53:08] <Guus> ... just a little :)
[07:54:34] <johnny> yeah.. cacert does a much better job at that imo
[07:54:41] <johnny> too bad cacert is in no browser :(
[07:58:34] <dwd> Guus, Well it's not in the FAQ that I could find. Plus if you guess wrong, they'll charge you $25 to revoke the cert, which seems close to a bait and switch.
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[07:59:12] <Guus> dwd: true
[07:59:14] <Guus> I ran into that
[07:59:22] <Guus> had to use a different subdomain as a result
[07:59:26] <Guus> which was annoying
[08:00:21] <dwd> And FWIW, I tried pointing out the errors in their certs, and even offered to put him in contact with Isode's PKI staff.
[08:01:03] <Alex> dwd: did you talk to Eddy?
[08:01:35] <dwd> Alex, Yes, exchanged a few emails, but then he insisted he'd got it all right and wouldn't budge without talking to PSA.
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[08:03:11] <dwd> I could have continued pushing, to be fair.
[08:06:17] <johnny> well.. if psa will do that for us, it would be a great service ..
[08:06:20] <Alex> I remeber that I had the same problem when I renewed a cert at the beginning of this year. Can't remember how I solved it
[08:06:38] <johnny> my real problem is the subjectaltname
[08:06:57] * Tobias joined the chat.
[08:07:27] <Alex> I think I have choosen the subdomain of the hostname which is in the SRV records, The xmpp domain itself has no subdomain.
[08:10:33] <Tobias> Alex: exactly, that's what i did and their support suggests you to do
[08:10:47] <Tobias> ad hi :)
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[08:22:32] <johnny> but did you also change the domain being served by the xmpp server in the server config?
[08:23:28] <dwd> Alex, Except that "subdomain" shouldn't appear in the certificate at all. Well, unless the DNS proposals change that.
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[09:32:46] <Tobias> dwd: so they issue wrong certs?
[09:33:26] <dwd> Tobias, You seen what's in sRVName?
[09:33:38] <Tobias> i can take a look
[09:37:51] <Tobias> dwd: you know a tool that shows that? OS X's keychain just shows DNS Name: jabber.ayena.de DNS Name: ayena.de
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[09:44:05] <Tobias> X509v3 Subject Alternative Name: DNS:jabber.ayena.de, DNS:ayena.de, othername:<unsupported>, othername:<unsupported>, othername:<unsupported>, othername:<unsupported>
[09:44:08] <dwd> Tobias, Sodium does, which is Isode's DUA. Don't know of anything freewareish.
[09:44:22] <Tobias> that's what openssl x509 -in cert.crt -noout -text told me
[09:45:02] <Tobias> and this around the top: Subject: description=268285-7o6HUDGMPbFdN095, C=DE, O=Persona Not Validated, OU=StartCom Free Certificate Member, CN=jabber.ayena.de/emailAddress=hostmaster@ayena.de
[09:45:10] <Tobias> no sRVName
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[09:49:00] <johnny> Tobias, i think you need openssl 1.0
[09:49:12] <johnny> oh.. SRV name.. not subjectlat name
[09:49:13] <johnny> ?
[09:51:00] <Tobias> well..g2g..see you later
[09:51:02] <dwd> johnny, sRVName is a SAN.
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[09:51:26] <johnny> oh.. i've never seen it specified other than just SubjectAltName
[09:51:30] <johnny> no qualifier
[09:51:51] <dwd> johnny, X.509 has a "Subject", which is a X.500 Distinguished Name, and otheriwse (should be) meaningless.
[09:52:24] <dwd> johnny, It also has zero or more "Subject Alternative Names" of various types. xmppAddr and sRVName are both OtherNames, in fact.
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[10:09:49] <abhinavsingh> hello friends, is their a good resource/tutorial/getting started thing
[10:10:00] <abhinavsingh> for jingle/audio/video chat using xmpp
[10:10:21] <abhinavsingh> anything will be a good boost and of help indeed.....
[10:13:33] <Zash> Like this: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0208.html ?
[10:14:24] <abhinavsingh> thanx Zash, i didn't knew abt this one
[10:14:30] <abhinavsingh> seems good... but still something
[10:14:35] <abhinavsingh> which is more elaborate
[10:14:40] <abhinavsingh> will be of great help
[10:17:19] <abhinavsingh> probably if someone somewhere have detailed out their jingle implementation including out-of-band infra details
[10:17:39] <abhinavsingh> will be of help.... xmpp related stuff is not a bother....
[10:19:39] <Zash> AFAIK, most clients (Pidgin and Gajim) use Farsight. So I'd suggest reading the gajim/src and any farsight docs you can find ;)
[10:21:16] <dwd> abhinavsingh, BTW, I noticed you've stood for Council.
[10:21:40] <abhinavsingh> yup
[10:22:20] <dwd> abhinavsingh, I don't actually see your name in the member list for the XSF - is that an oversight, or didn't you realise you needed to be an XSF member first?
[10:22:44] <abhinavsingh> i think i got my membership with 42/42 votes.... not sure if the member list
[10:22:44] <dwd> abhinavsingh, FWIW, I don't actually like that restriction, and I'm hoping to remove it.
[10:22:47] <abhinavsingh> page got updated
[10:23:29] <dwd> Ah, yes, I see it hasn't been updated for a while. OK, that's good then.
[10:24:00] <abhinavsingh> http://xmpp.org/xsf/members/meetings/2010-08-12.shtml
[10:24:04] <abhinavsingh> last name in the list
[10:24:50] <dwd> abhinavsingh, Good stuff. Might want to edit your candidacy page to include that reference in case anyone else gets confused.
[10:25:32] <abhinavsingh> ohk, i shall add this link on my twiki page....
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[10:30:25] <abhinavsingh> @Zash thanks mate, didn't knew abt Farsight it looks promising... and indeed going the hardway (looking at pidgin/gajim) source is the best way i suppose....
[10:31:09] <Zash> :)
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[10:55:32] <Alex> the latest memberlist is currently on the new web page: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-member-list/
[10:56:45] <Alex> I also have to talk to Will to move over all the meeting minutes
[11:00:31] <dwd> Alex, Ah, that's not what's linked to from the elections Wiki page.
[11:01:23] <Alex> ya, we have t get all old content to the new page and then get rid of the old pages and check links and redirects
[11:02:29] <dwd> Alex, It may be confusing to people other than me.
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[11:06:02] <Alex> dwd: yes it is, its on my todo list to move some stuff to the new pages this week,. But there are still many tables that we have to move.
[11:11:47] <dwd> *nods* Sure. I appreciate it's a lot of work.
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[12:54:04] * Tobias has set the topic to "Jabber/XMPP Development | RFCs and Extensions: http://xmpp.org | Logs: http://logs.jabber.org/new/".
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[13:44:02] <zanchin> Alex, when you get a chance, it looks like none of the new applicants from http://xmpp.org/xsf/members/meetings/2010-05-06.shtml are on the member list page
[13:46:29] <Alex> zanchin: thanks, I am working on this stuff right now. Because our SVN server got broke this is messed up
[13:46:59] <Alex> ported the meeting minutes to the new page. They are here now: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/
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[13:47:29] <dwd> BTW, if anyone's interested in what StartCom actually puts in your "XMPP" certificate, here's what Sodium, our Directory Browser, actually says about the certificate Isode got from them nearly a year ago. It's much the same as the one I got last week: http://dave.cridland.net/xeps/Screenshot-Certificate%20Details%20.png
[13:48:00] <dwd> You'll note we guessed the "subdomain" probably meant a chat service, whereas most people here guessed hostname.
[13:49:16] <dwd> As such, this *does* strictly validate our server for its chat domain, as long as we ignore the illegal sRVName (which doesn't begin with "_xmpp."). But "isode.com" itself *only* has a dNSName, so obeying all the SHOULDs would lead this to fail to validate.
[13:52:14] <dwd> FWIW, the newer ones include xmppAddr and sRVName for the base domain as well as the "subdomain", but the sRVName is still broken, lacking the _xmpp prefix.
[13:52:41] <dwd> So they'll be after $25 to fix it, I suppose.
[13:52:50] <Alex> zanchin: fixed
[13:56:16] <zanchin> thanks!
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[14:42:55] <Tobias> dwd: why 25 USD?
[14:43:09] <dwd> Tobias, Revokation fee.
[14:43:17] <Tobias> ahh :)
[14:44:24] <Tobias> dwd: have you already told them about this error?
[14:47:37] <dwd> When we got the isode.com one. (Which we never used).
[14:48:06] <dwd> As far as I can remember, anyway - we certainly had a conversation by email.
[14:53:23] <Tobias> their XMPP support is quite responsive too :)
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[14:55:27] <Tobias> i'll point them to the logs of this room, maybe they'll fix this
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[15:32:32] <Florob> Hmm... anyone seen a client that does kicks based on the full JID?
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[15:51:19] <dwd> Florob, I vaguely recall Kev mentioning something like this a while back.
[15:51:45] <Kev> I think what I remember is clients trying to ban based on nick.
[15:51:49] <Kev> But I could misremember
[15:52:08] <Kev> Or make owner based on nick, possibly.
[15:55:33] <Florob> Kev, well, that is not allowed anyway AFAICT. What I'm pondering is the change I proposed on the ML. E.g. If a user has two sessions from bob@example.com/foo and bob@example.com/bar both using room@host.com/bobby as room JID. Does it make sense to be able to kick bob@example.com/foo, while the second session remains...
[15:55:50] <Kev> Nope.
[15:56:11] <dwd> Great. One of my new kittens managed to generate a massive load on ym XMPP server, there, by walking onto the keyboard and causing Ubuntu's command-not-found handler to go insane.
[15:56:23] <Zash> HAHAHA
[15:56:37] <Zash> dwd: Install a cat detector!
[15:56:43] <Kev> Zash: `top`
[15:56:57] <louiz’> send pics, instead
[15:56:59] <dwd> Zash, I have a mouse, if that helps.
[15:57:11] <petermount> dwd: cat's tend to like keyboards unfortunately
[15:58:10] <dwd> petermount, But kittens are awesome at crawling through smaller gaps in my office and clearing out the dust.
[15:58:28] <Florob> Kev, that's what I think. But it'd be a backwards-incompatible change :(
[15:59:16] <Florob> as in: The XEP allows that right now
[16:01:18] <Kev> Well, there's no harm in allowing it (that I can immediately see), it's just silly.
[16:02:21] <dwd> I thought role changes were specified by nickname?
[16:03:36] <Florob> dwd, no. Right now it's nickname or full JID. I'd like to change that to just nickname, but I think that wont go with the spirit of backwards compatibility
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[16:03:56] <Kev> Florob: That isn't a change I'd let through Council, personally.
[16:04:14] <Kev> Not that it needs be a problem in a month's time :)
[16:04:33] <Kev> I think it's just too big a change, though.
[16:04:51] <Kev> Even if 45 isn't Final yet.
[16:05:02] <Florob> Kev, me neither if I was in council. So I'll just try to get the different matching for affiliations through. That IS backwards compatible as far as I can tell by now
[16:05:45] <Kev> I think the JID-matching changes are good to do because there's ambiguity at the moment.
[16:06:29] <dwd> Kev, I only looked at these quite quickly - they're basically describing what we do, right?
[16:06:37] <Kev> dwd: I believe so.
[16:06:54] <Kev> dwd: domain = wildcard, rather than host-only.
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[16:08:05] <petermount> kev/florob: wouldn't that be a change for the successor to 45? I.e. months ago it was mentioned on thinking of a Muc2 spec?
[16:09:01] <Florob> petermount, that is (as well as XMPP2) something I'd personally put into the far future... However there are certainly things in MUC that could need a general overhaul
[16:09:14] <Kev> petermount: I don't think MUC2 is something that's going to gain much traction any time soon.
[16:09:16] <Tobias> dwd: according to startssl the certs were the only ones that worked with google wave, which is based on XMPP. but maybe that's because the used XMPP server validated them different
[16:09:38] <Kev> I'd love to to have a nicer MUC because it's warty, but it does mostly work, and it's widely deployed.
[16:10:01] <dwd> Tobias, Still not conformant, though.
[16:10:05] <petermount> kev: yes, it's sort of quietly died...
[16:14:00] <Florob> Let anyone with a valid XMPP TLS cert throw the first stone
[16:14:25] <louiz’> what is an invalid cert?
[16:14:41] <Florob> s/valid/conformant/
[16:14:51] <louiz’> :)
[16:15:50] <Zash> /me throws a pencil in the general direction of cacert.org
[16:16:11] <Zash> I wonder if they would just filter out any xmpp stuff
[16:16:50] <Florob> Zash, once upon a time stpeter said he had worked with them so generating xmpp certs would work. I have never tried though...
[16:17:50] <Zash> http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_Server_Certificates ← Is that correct? And, how do I use that to generate a proper cert?
[16:19:19] <Florob> comare it to http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis-16.html#security-certificates-generation-general and tell me ;)
[16:20:45] <Zash> The .. what?
[16:21:06] <Zash> Now my brain hurts :(
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[18:57:26] <Alex Milowski> I have some (possibly simple) questions about MUC room creation on conference.jabber.org surrounding room configuration.
[18:57:59] <waqas> Go ahead and ask :)
[18:58:45] <Alex Milowski> I can create the room by just joining a non-existent room and I get a 201 response but I can't seem to configure the room. I keep getting "not-allowed/405" back.
[18:59:05] <Alex Milowski> My affiliation is "owner" when the 201 comes back for the room creation.
[18:59:55] <Alex Milowski> I can get the room configuration ... but can't set it.
[19:00:43] <waqas> I just tried in a new room. Configuration succeeds :/
[19:00:49] <deryni> Can you get the xmpp traffic?
[19:01:01] <Alex Milowski> Yeah ... this is all custom low-level code.
[19:01:13] <Alex Milowski> (my own ...)
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[19:01:39] <deryni> Are you sending fields that you aren't getting in the initial form?
[19:01:49] <Alex Milowski> I've tried the simplest configuration (instant room) ... that fails.
[19:02:18] <Alex Milowski> So far ... I'm just sending a handful of fields. Do I need to repeat the whole set?
[19:02:58] <deryni> Sending a request for an instant room is getting you a 405?
[19:03:42] <Alex Milowski> Yes. ... if I am sending it correctly.
[19:08:15] <Alex Milowski> When the presence comes back with the 201 for room creation, shouldn't I also get a 110 status code as well or is that implied?
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[19:24:14] <Kev> Alex Milowski: Due to extensive bugs in deployed clients, the server only sends one status code at a time.
[19:29:57] <Alex Milowski> OK. My assumption was that when I got the 201 I was "in the room" ...
[19:32:55] <Kev> That's about right.
[19:33:02] <Kev> Although it's locked.
[19:33:34] <Alex Milowski> Right. So I've just tested with a Tigase based server. I seems to accept my instant room configuration.
[19:33:56] <Alex Milowski> Do I need particular privileges on conference.jabber.org somehow?
[19:33:58] <Zash> Instant?
[19:34:22] <Alex Milowski> Section 10.1.2: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#createroom
[19:34:37] <Zash> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#createroom-instant even
[19:34:38] <Alex Milowski> You send an empty configuration ... accept all the defaults.
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[19:35:18] <Kev> <presence to="testtestblah@conference.jabber.org/homeKev"><status></status><c hash="sha-1" node="http://swift.im" ver="XH3meI11JZj00/DhOlop7p7jKBE=" xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/caps"/><x xmlns="vcard-temp:x:update"><photo>95c18ddee74b56ce3869c7e2e023188d2c56dc07</photo></x><x xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/muc"/></presence><presence from='testtestblah@conference.jabber.org/homeKev' to='me'><status/><c hash='sha-1' node='http://swift.im' ver='XH3meI11JZj00/DhOlop7p7jKBE=' xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/caps'/><x xmlns='vcard-temp:x:update'><photo>95c18ddee74b56ce3869c7e2e023188d2c56dc07</photo></x><x xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#user'><item affiliation='owner' role='moderator'/><status code='201'/></x></presence><iq id="f" to="testtestblah@conference.jabber.org" type="set"><query xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#owner"><x type="submit" xmlns="jabber:x:data"/></query></iq><iq from='testtestblah@conference.jabber.org' to='me' type='result' id='f'/>
[19:35:36] <Kev> Works for me.
[19:37:08] <Alex Milowski> Hmm... I add the 'from' attribute to the iq/@set
[19:37:31] <Kev> As a client, you shouldn't be setting from on any stanzas you send
[19:38:47] <Alex Milowski> Let's see if that helps ...
[19:39:38] <Alex Milowski> No.
[19:39:49] <Alex Milowski> Do I need to do something with my account @ jabber.org to enable this?
[19:43:56] <Kev> No, nor does it need to be a jabber.org account.
[19:44:05] <Kev> Why not pastebin your XML somewhere and we can look at it?
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[19:45:50] <Alex Milowski> I'm going to need to add some client-side debugging support for this ...
[19:46:08] <Alex Milowski> Strange that it works elsewhere ...
[19:46:50] <Kev> Many servers don't care about you submitting a configuration form, so that may be why you've had it work elsewhere.
[19:49:35] <Alex Milowski> I've just tried the same code on jabber.me (Tigase) ...
[19:49:47] <Alex Milowski> It unlocks the room once I do the instant room configuration.
[19:50:09] <Kev> Let's see the XML then :)
[19:50:23] <Alex Milowski> Right ... I need to get the characters off the wire ...
[19:53:27] <Kev> A server bug isn't impossible, but it does work for me.
[19:54:51] <Zash> X509v3 Subject Alternative Name: DNS:zash.se, othername:<unsupported>, ...
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[20:15:25] <dwd> Okay, nothing to do with XMPP as such, but someone asked Steve Jobs why the iPhone doesn't do IMAP IDLE, and he responded saying it's too power hungry for mobile devices. And then the guy forwards this reponse to all the serious IMAP experts and the IETF. Hilarity ensues.
[20:16:39] <Zash> Link or it never happend!
[20:17:01] <Alex Milowski> OK. Take a look at this: <iq to='ababab@conference.jabber.org' id='4f82d16a-6e0e-47a3-b86a-6c36d853c4f7' type='set'><n0:query xmlns:n0='http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#owner'><n1:x type='submit' xmlns:n1='jabber:x:data'/></n0:query></iq>
[20:17:11] <Alex Milowski> My serializer for the XML is generating prefixes ...
[20:17:22] <Alex Milowski> ...while that should work, maybe that is causing problems?
[20:19:34] <Tobias> dwd: yeah..read that too :D
[20:20:09] <dwd> Zash, http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.mail.imap.general/2505 - but that doesn't show all the responses. Sec.
[20:20:45] <dwd> http://mailman2.u.washington.edu/pipermail/imap-protocol/2010-October/thread.html
[20:23:02] <Tobias> dwd: but the TCP keep-alives interval is quite high, i mean the radio would go to low power if the TCP connection isn't used, right?
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[20:24:25] <dwd> Tobias, Not TCP keepalives, application-level. In IMAP's case, a DONE/IDLE cycle.
[20:25:27] <dwd> Tobias, There's a little more than that, in as much as it's cheaper for the battery to not process any incoming EXISTS, and wait for the user to react to the "ding", since it's as cheap to fetch all outstanding summary data as it is to fetch it for one message.
[20:25:41] <dwd> Tobias, The flip-side being that if you "ding", then go out of signal, the user will cry.
[20:27:27] <Zash> And, top-posting
[20:28:33] <dwd> Zash, What? Where?
[20:28:58] <Zash> First link?
[20:29:49] <dwd> Alex Milowski, You still about?
[20:30:27] <Zash> dwd: The Steve Jobs part?
[20:30:35] <Alex Milowski> Yes
[20:30:52] <dwd> Zash, Oh, him. Yes. Turtle-neck wearing freak that he is, he even top-posts.
[20:31:03] <Alex Milowski> Removing the prefixes solves my problem ... that seems like a server bug.
[20:31:07] <Tobias> heh
[20:31:29] <dwd> Alex Milowski, Ah... Well, we have rewritten the XML parser, so that bug should vanish shortly.
[20:31:45] <Alex Milowski> OK.
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[20:38:31] <Alex Milowski> Things seem to work now. Thanks for the help. I have my test code working between two different servers running different implementations.
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[20:50:58] <dwd> Oooh, I have a new XEP.
[20:51:20] <Zash> Yay
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[20:55:41] <Alex Milowski> BTW, here's where that client code lives: http://code.google.com/p/xeerkat/
[20:56:00] <Alex Milowski> I'm working on using MUC to allow peers to meet and collaborate on computations/tasks ...
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[20:57:25] <Alex Milowski> ...and I'm off to talk to astronomers next week to convince them to use XMPP for event synchronization. :)
[20:58:09] <dwd> Alex Milowski, Don't suppose you could write up what you're doing and send it to the jdev mailing list?
[20:58:13] <Zash> Wishlist: SSL/TLS checking service for XMPP servers
[20:58:24] <dwd> Zash, Funny you should mention that.
[20:59:12] <dwd> Zash, I suggested that to Steve (the Isode CEO), and he's agreed that I can divert some programming time onto such a beast.
[20:59:13] <Zash> /me just remade his XMPP cert from that wiki page
[20:59:22] <Zash> dwd: Awesome!
[21:00:07] <Alex Milowski> Yes, I could ...
[21:00:31] <Alex Milowski> Not sure when I'll find time this week ... maybe after I talk at caltech next week
[21:01:28] <Alex Milowski> my xeerkat project needs some "synchronization" with the XEP's ... and should try to switch over to using the xmpp scheme.
[21:02:07] <Alex Milowski> I tunnel http-like requests over XMPP ... neat, but very non-standard at the moment.
[21:02:22] <Tobias> dwd: beast?
[21:02:37] <dwd> Alex Milowski, I was thinking that people will be inetersted in what you're doing, and also give you a load of feedback on things to make it a bit "more XMPPish".
[21:03:12] <dwd> Tobias, "such a beast" == "something like that". In this case, a TLS certificate checker for XMPP servers.
[21:03:43] <Tobias> dwd: how would that be a beast, it's just connecting, getting the cert and then checking some info on that
[21:04:22] <Alex Milowski> Absolutely. That would be a big help.
[21:04:31] <dwd> Tobias, It's not a beast, it's that "such a beast" is an idiom in English. :-)
[21:04:38] <Zash> Something like http://mailcheck.iis.se/ for XMPP
[21:04:51] <Tobias> dwd: ahh :)
[21:05:00] <Alex Milowski> BTW ... are there any policy documents at the XMPP Standards Foundations that dictate how namespaces are to be assigned.
[21:05:00] <dwd> Zash, Right. Except we were going to build it over XMPP.
[21:05:02] <Alex Milowski> ?
[21:05:10] <dwd> Alex Milowski, Yes...
[21:05:21] <dwd> Alex Milowski, You're going to ask me where, now, aren't you? :-)
[21:05:23] <Zash> XMPP Registrar?!
[21:05:28] <dwd> !xep registrar
[21:05:41] <Zash> No bot :(
[21:05:45] <dwd> Kanchil, Wake up!
[21:05:49] <dwd> !ping
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[21:06:15] <dwd> Oh. I was going to use the Isode one, but that's vanished too. Kev must have killed it. :-)
[21:06:30] <Zash> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0053.html :)
[21:06:30] <Kev> Kurt killed it, technically.
[21:07:05] <dwd> Kev, He might argue it was Ian for sending an unlabelled message in a private message in a chatroom. :-)
[21:07:41] <dwd> Alex Milowski, It's XEP-0053, as Zash says, anyway.
[21:07:57] <Alex Milowski> Interesting ... xmpp owner identifier for urns ... XMPP is one of the very few that has one.
[21:08:47] <dwd> Alex Milowski, To get urn:X, X must be a SDO. The XSF is one, of course, so we qualify.
[21:09:56] <Alex Milowski> The W3C now frowns on non-resolvable URI values for namespaces ... but that is a whole other take on this.
[21:10:55] <dwd> Well, at one point, they frowned on resolvable ones. :-)
[21:11:25] <Alex Milowski> So, by default, the use of the fragment identifier in namespaces is something that won't continue to occur?
[21:11:56] <Alex Milowski> (Right ... the politics of URN owner identifiers killed it from the perspective of the TAG)
[21:12:14] <dwd> Alex Milowski, Right. And also, we use versioning to make namespaces stable, even if the spec changes.
[21:12:34] <Alex Milowski> ...putting #whatever in an xmlns attribute gives me the shivers.
[21:13:34] <Alex Milowski> Especially when http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#user and http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#owner resolve to the same location on the web as clients don't send fragment identifiers.
[21:14:19] <dwd> At least the W3C dropped the equivalence between <bar xmlns='foo'/> and <foobar/> early on. That I thought was uniquely confusing.
[21:14:30] <Florob> BTW (@cert checker). I gave a talk on XMPP on thursday. Somehow compliance checkers (RFC/XEP compliance) were quite high on the wish-list
[21:16:09] <Alex Milowski> I'll post something on the jdev mailing list when I get a chance ... now that my MUC code is working ... I should get back to it.
[21:16:37] <Alex Milowski> I'm going in next week on behave of the NVO (http://www.us-vo.org/) to talk to the LIGO folks (see http://www.ligo.caltech.edu/).
[21:16:45] <Alex Milowski> The NVO wants to use XMPP ...
[21:16:52] <Alex Milowski> ...but a lot of people need to be convinced.
[21:17:15] <Alex Milowski> (or, at least, some people at the NVO want to use XMPP)
[21:17:45] <Alex Milowski> ...and I, of course, don't work for any of them. Could be pitchforks and torches.
[21:18:10] <dwd> Alex Milowski, We find that in our markets (mostly Military/Intel, but other similar places) that there's often a lot of support for XMPP, but quite some resistance, too.
[21:18:40] <Zash> "Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory" .. woah, dude!
[21:19:03] <dwd> Zash, Yeah, I've got one of those, too. Handy little things.
[21:20:00] <Zash> XMPP needz moar lazors!
[21:20:18] <Alex Milowski> LIGO is a simple example of a larger problem in astronomy ... they have events that occur between observation devices that need to be communicated in near real time ...
[21:20:34] <Alex Milowski> ...and then propagated to a larger community.
[21:20:55] <Zash> PubSub! \o/
[21:21:15] <Alex Milowski> My premise is that something like a MUC or PubSub can be used to handle the "local" communication ...
[21:21:33] <Tobias> dwd: and what do you guys tell them? resistance is futile
[21:21:34] <Tobias> ?
[21:22:09] <Alex Milowski> Currently, they are literally opening sockets on servers and writing data across the internet ... not even HTTP.
[21:22:34] <Alex Milowski> ...and I have no idea how they handle security.
[21:22:48] <Alex Milowski> So, there are lots of opportunities there.
[21:24:29] <dwd> Alex Milowski, Well, if they want a system which'll integrate into their existing X.500 arhcitecture, let me know. :-)
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