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[02:16:26] <cheney46695> when using s2s, does a remote server sends presence stanza with the to attribute for each user
[02:17:01] <cheney46695> or does it just send the presence stanza with empty to and the receiving server should fill it?
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[03:10:36] <cleveland46766> so I want to add jabber to my PHPbb. It states get a list of servers from Jabber... Where might I find those?
[03:17:57] <HedgeMage> cleveland46766, there's a list on xmpp.org somewhere
[03:18:34] <zanchin> yeah: http://xmpp.org/xmpp-software/servers/
[03:20:28] <cleveland46766> thanks guys
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[10:11:13] <eisenhower53493> is there a xep for s2s?
[10:14:16] <Kev> No, you want http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis-18
[10:16:08] <eisenhower53493> I don't see details about how to implement s2s?
[10:16:42] <eisenhower53493> for example, server1 has user1@server1.com and server2 has user2@server2.com
[10:17:25] <eisenhower53493> does server2 sends presence with to=user1@server1.com or does it send a presence without to and server1 broadcast to all users?
[10:17:56] <Kev> For presence, you want http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-16
[10:20:00] <eisenhower53493> it's not just presence it's all details related to s2s
[10:20:13] <Kev> For s2s itself, you want 3920bis.
[10:20:17] <eisenhower53493> if server2 has a failure, how does server1 knows about it?
[10:20:20] <Kev> For what to do with IM stanzas, you want 3921bis.
[10:21:10] <Kev> If you're asking that because you want to be sure that stanzas get delivered even if the link fails, you want http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0198.html
[10:21:28] <eisenhower53493> 3920bis only explain how to authenticate the servers
[10:21:40] <eisenhower53493> but what about keepalive, what about failures
[10:22:24] <eisenhower53493> user2@server2.com send presence without to, does server2 adds to=... before it sends it to server1 or does server does it?
[10:22:57] <Kev> As 3920bis says, stanzas sent across s2s require to and from attributes.
[10:23:23] <Kev> And 3921bis describes what actions the server has to take when the user sends a presenc.
[10:23:24] <Kev> +e
[10:23:47] <eisenhower53493> and what about the actual connection between the servers
[10:24:00] <Kev> 3920bis describes how to get a connection between the servers.
[10:24:04] <eisenhower53493> and what server1 need to do when server2 has a failure or a network failure
[10:24:20] <eisenhower53493> how to get a connection but not how to maintain it
[10:25:24] <Kev> You don't need to maintain it, it's just going to stay open until one end closes it, or there's a failure.
[10:26:16] <eisenhower53493> and if there is a failure, server1 need to keep a list of all online users from server2 and send offline presence from them to its users?
[10:26:34] <Kev> No, that shouldn't be needed.
[10:26:42] <eisenhower53493> why not?
[10:27:00] <eisenhower53493> then server1's users will think server2's users are still online
[10:27:08] <Kev> They probably still are.
[10:27:26] <eisenhower53493> but they can't connect
[10:28:14] <eisenhower53493> and it's possible that server2 will be down for hours
[10:28:16] <Kev> Generally if an s2s connection gets closed for some reason, you can reestablish it immediately.
[10:28:47] <eisenhower53493> let's say server2 need to be restarted or has a hard-drive failure
[10:29:06] <eisenhower53493> server1's users will think that server2's users are online for ever
[10:29:30] <Kev> If server1's users never log out, yes, that's true.
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[10:30:31] <eisenhower53493> so server1 doesn't need to hold a list of online users from server2
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[10:30:51] <eisenhower53493> server1 just deliver presence stanzas from server2 and forget about it
[10:31:47] <Kev> Unless you want to implement some of the cool stuff in xep-0060 (pubsub), you don't need to do more presence stuff than is described in 3921bis, correct.
[10:32:21] <eisenhower53493> for what part of pubsub I need it?
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[10:33:58] <Kev> Filtered notifications and autosubscribe.
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[10:35:29] <eisenhower53493> the amount of data needed to be sent is huge
[10:35:45] <eisenhower53493> server1 doesn't know who is online from server2
[10:36:00] <eisenhower53493> so it needs to send a presence stanza to all the friends of user1
[10:36:10] <eisenhower53493> sound like a waste
[10:36:55] <eisenhower53493> and I don't see how filtered notification and autosubscribe is different from normal users
[10:37:00] <Kev> It is how it is.
[10:37:59] <eisenhower53493> ok. so why server1 need to keep a list of online users from server2 for filtered notification?
[10:38:20] <Kev> It doesn't, it just needs to pay attention to the presence packets as they go through to pull out the caps data.
[10:39:18] <eisenhower53493> ok. so xmpp makes sure each server is isolated
[10:39:25] <eisenhower53493> and there is no shared state between servers
[10:39:33] <eisenhower53493> something like mail servers
[10:39:50] <Kev> Yes, the model is very similar to mail.
[10:40:03] <Kev> Only without the layers of indirection.
[10:40:11] <Kev> And with stronger identity.
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[10:41:38] <eisenhower53493> to simplify the federation with have a small cost of having "zombie" online users in the case of remote server failure
[10:42:29] <Kev> Yes, although they're limited in scope with the connection of the entity seeing the zombies.
[10:43:06] <Kev> If a server wanted to avoid these zombies, by checking s2s availability and throwing offline presences when the remote server becomes unavailable, it could.
[10:43:24] <Kev> (Even without itself maintaining a list of online remote users).
[10:43:30] <eisenhower53493> are you familiar with a server that does it?
[10:43:36] <Kev> This isn't generally seen as necessary, though, and isn't done by anyone that I know of.
[10:44:21] <eisenhower53493> in case of a failure the server could scan the list of online users and see if there are contacts from server2 and send unavailable presence from them
[10:44:33] <Kev> That is technically possible, yes.
[10:44:43] <Kev> Although you don't just want a failure, you want an unrecoverable failure.
[10:45:02] <Kev> s2s sessions get shut down all the time, not all because of failure cases.
[10:45:15] <eisenhower53493> if server2 has an unrecoverable failure
[10:45:17] <Kev> Some servers even shut them down after they've been idle for a while, although it's not recommended.
[10:45:19] <Kev> Yes.
[10:45:30] <eisenhower53493> maybe it should send unavailable from all users when it come up again?
[10:45:43] <Kev> server1 could detect that it's no longer able to connect to server2, and send unavailable from any server2 users in a server1 user's roster.
[10:46:08] <Kev> I think that would be overkill.
[10:46:13] <Kev> With a significant cost.
[10:46:53] <eisenhower53493> so there is no simple way to handle remote sever failure
[10:47:15] <eisenhower53493> I just have to live with zombie online users in the rare occasion it happens
[10:47:23] <Kev> You don't *have* to live with them.
[10:47:28] <eisenhower53493> ?
[10:47:48] <Kev> As I say, a server could choose to deal with it, but I don't know of any that choose to do, as this is such an uncommon event.
[10:48:58] <Kev> And it's not as bad as it sounds anyway, as the user will know that the contact is unreachable if they try and send a message, or similar.
[10:49:12] <eisenhower53493> how will they know?
[10:49:30] <Kev> Their messages will be returned with an error saying the remote server couldn't be reached.
[10:49:49] <eisenhower53493> that's the part that I was missing :)
[10:50:02] <eisenhower53493> now it all make sense
[10:50:56] <Kev> There is a small chance of this not happening, if you have a black-hole network event, instead of the sockets being closed, and this is what XEp-0198 solves.
[10:51:26] <eisenhower53493> ok
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[14:01:12] <Mati> !services
[14:01:15] <Mati> damn, gone
[14:01:20] <Mati> what was that url? naw?
[14:01:33] <naw> jabberes.org/servers/
[14:01:59] <Mati> ah right
[14:02:01] <Mati> thanks
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[16:45:10] <cleveland9413> hello
[16:45:32] <cleveland9413> what is jabber server adress
[16:45:37] <cleveland9413> address
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[16:46:46] <naw> jabber.org
[16:46:58] <naw> and the rooms are on conference.jabber.org
[16:49:02] <cleveland9413> it is possible add jabber in phpbb
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[20:46:45] <Jonathon Conte> hi all. my friend ran across a bug today. she has an account on jabber.org and is unable to remove a malformed JID from her buddy list.
[20:48:18] <Jonathon Conte> she tried removing the contact with both empathy and pidgin but neither client makes the change on the server
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[20:50:19] <user123> hi. I'm trying to file transfers & I'm have problems
[20:50:30] <user123> I use psi jabber client
[20:51:01] <user123> I aded to psi proxy server, but file transfers is not aviable
[20:51:20] <user123> proxy is a proxy.eu.jabber.org
[20:51:27] <user123> what I do wrang ?
[20:52:42] <user123> I add proxy in the: options->Misk->Data Transfer Proxy:proxy.eu.jabber.org
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[20:58:43] <user123> where you are ?=)
[20:58:48] <user123> I need help
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