Logs for jdev

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[08:32:44] <louiz’> In what way is XEP 0084 (user avatar) better than an avatar in the Vcard (vcard-temp XEP 0054)?
[08:33:07] <johnny> !xep avatar
[08:33:09] <Kanchil> johnny: Multiple matches: XEP-0153: vCard-Based Avatars, XEP-0084: User Avatar, XEP-0008: IQ-Based Avatars
[08:33:18] <johnny> does 84 use pep?
[08:33:22] <louiz’> If I understand correctly, this avatar would not be viewable trhough a muc, for example?
[08:33:23] <johnny> i know there's pep avatars
[08:33:27] <louiz’> johnny, yes
[08:33:29] <louiz’> that 84
[08:33:33] <louiz’> +'s
[08:33:43] <johnny> because it was thought it was better to publish an avatar i guess
[08:33:57] <johnny> mattj has/had code for gajim and prosody for pep in muc
[08:34:00] <johnny> nothin standard yet
[08:34:05] <johnny> i assume you would support both and not one
[08:34:16] <louiz’> ok
[08:34:21] <louiz’> pep in muc would be great
[08:34:34] <Kev> 153 is essentially a custom form of pubsub using the presence system.
[08:34:48] <Kev> (ab)Using presence for this isn't the right way to do things.
[08:35:11] <Kev> So 84 is the better model, but we do need to address PEP in MUCs, indeed.
[08:35:12] <louiz’> because, people still publish what they're listening to through their status message instead of pep, because they want to announce that in MUCs too
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[08:37:18] <louiz’> if Mattj succeeded in implementing pep in muc, it should be easy to start publishing an experimental draft, no?
[08:37:58] <Kev> I'm not sure it even needs to be Standards Track, I suspect Informational would suffice.
[08:38:15] <louiz’> oh
[08:38:46] <Kev> Without knowing what he did, but the obvious thing to do only needs to be informational.
[08:40:13] <louiz’> In that case, xep 84 would be great.
[08:45:41] <louiz’> I'm not really familiar, but how would this work? If I publish my Tune, my server needs to know the JID of my contacts who wants to receive it, in order to be able to send them the notification, no?
[08:47:39] <johnny> i don't think you'd actually be subscribing to it
[08:47:42] <Kev> You don't get it for free, certainly, but it's not clear to me that the protocol needs a great deal of bending.
[08:47:58] <johnny> i guess it's more like the muc is publishing it, not the user
[08:48:12] <johnny> otherwise anonymous rooms wouldn't work
[08:48:31] <louiz’> that's my concern
[08:48:45] <johnny> well ask mattj, but i'm guessing he didn't actually do it that way
[08:48:49] <johnny> there's a post if you search
[08:48:54] <louiz’> yeah, I'll ask him
[08:48:57] <johnny> his gajim patch doesn't apply anymore
[08:49:31] <johnny> http://blog.prosody.im/multi-user-chat-gets-rich/
[08:49:43] <johnny> as the pep code was much simplified there
[08:50:24] <johnny> louiz’, "I chose to turn the MUC's bare JID into a virtual pubsub service for each occupant. Events are published from the respective occupant's room JID, as a message of type 'groupchat' (in my experience using the type eased the client implementation)."
[08:50:28] <louiz’> ok, thanks
[08:51:17] <johnny> so now you actually have ammo upon which to pepper him with questions :)
[08:52:46] <louiz’> yep :p
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[09:12:37] <MattJ> /me puts on his pepper-proof suit
[09:12:57] <louiz’> I was wondering if you think your implementation of pep in muc could already be described in a XEP
[09:13:08] <louiz’> informational only, as Kev suggested
[09:13:47] <MattJ> Sure, it could
[09:14:10] <louiz’> Because, in addition to tune, activity and mood, there's also the user avatar, that would benefit of this
[09:14:48] <MattJ> http://www.mail-archive.com/standards@xmpp.org/msg06620.html
[09:15:32] <MattJ> http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2009-June/022190.html
[09:15:33] <MattJ> Better
[09:15:37] <louiz’> Should I start writting the XEP? :p
[09:15:51] <MattJ> Yes please :)
[09:16:20] <MattJ> I have had less feedback on it than I would have liked though
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[09:16:41] <louiz’> Well, does your implementation require a lot of change, or just some informational notes about, e.g., "the pubsub service is the muc's bare JID" etc?
[09:16:44] <MattJ> and I know that at a summit in the US (I wasn't present) the issue was discussed
[09:17:18] <MattJ> and they came up with IMHO the most complicated way possible of doing it
[09:17:35] <MattJ> but thankfully they all seem to have forgotten, since I've seen no attempts at specs
[09:17:37] <louiz’> (I'll obviously take a closer look at the code etc, but I'm just asking to know if it's a good starting point)
[09:17:44] <louiz’> aha ok
[09:17:51] <MattJ> Yes, that's a good starting point
[09:18:07] <MattJ> There's no new protocol, the MUC service just uses the caps in the presence you send to join the room
[09:18:19] <louiz’> Ok, and a good starting point, for me, to discover how to write a XEP
[09:18:33] <MattJ> The only "different" thing is that clients now need to push any public PEP updates manually to the room
[09:18:44] <MattJ> This is the same as presence
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[09:18:57] <johnny> MattJ, rewriting the gajim patch should be easy i hope..
[09:19:14] <johnny> i'll try to get one of them to reimplement it
[09:19:15] <MattJ> johnny, depends how much better or worse the Gajim code became :)
[09:19:26] <johnny> the pep code requires less boilerplate
[09:19:31] <MattJ> johnny, I'm quite tempted to not bother, but wait until it's plugginable
[09:19:43] <johnny> hmm.. i'll bug asterix :)
[09:20:00] <MattJ> The hardest part was drawing into the room roster
[09:20:07] <MattJ> with tooltips
[09:20:08] <louiz’> It would also be implemented in poezio, as a proof of concept, if that's not too hard (not really familiar with PEP yet)
[09:20:10] <MattJ> It should all be abstracted
[09:20:31] <MattJ> louiz’, for you it's trivial :)
[09:20:38] <louiz’> hehe :)
[09:20:47] <MattJ> The hardest part is caps hash generation, but you should be doing that already
[09:21:11] <louiz’> not yet :p
[09:21:49] <louiz’> I'll put all these tasks on my todo list \o
[09:21:52] <MattJ> Tut tut :)
[09:28:53] <louiz’> 2) only send it to users with the appropriate +notify in their features.
[09:29:22] <louiz’> this would require a change in MUC servers, right?
[09:29:54] <louiz’> we'd have to wait 10+ months to have non-prosody servers to have this feature :p
[09:30:00] <MattJ> Yes, it certainly does
[09:30:04] <MattJ> Yes, you probably would :)
[09:30:45] <louiz’> but I don't care, I'm running bleeding-edge \o
[09:30:50] <MattJ> But carry on reading - if the server chooses to let all message payloads through then it can still work without explicit PEP support
[09:31:26] <MattJ> Whether sending PEP updates without knowing support should be recommended I'm not sure yet
[09:31:47] <louiz’> nd I don't know either
[09:33:50] <louiz’> What would be the problem to send a PEP update to a non-MEP compliant MUC?
[09:34:29] <louiz’> a lot of maybe-useless notifications sent to occupants
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[09:40:05] <MattJ> Yes
[09:40:50] <louiz’> but that's all, it wouldn't break anything, would it?
[09:40:57] <MattJ> Nope
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[10:14:57] <louiz’> by the way: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=xmpp.org that's <br /> not <br>
[10:20:22] <MattJ> :)
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[13:56:24] <louiz’> svn co svn://svn.xmpp.org:7938/xmpp .
[13:56:35] <louiz’> gives me a permission denied
[13:56:38] <Kev> It would.
[13:56:46] <Kev> xmpp.org doesn't run svn.
[13:56:59] <Kev> http://gitorious.com/xmpp
[13:57:02] <louiz’> I find this on "http://xmpp.org/xsf/sourcecontrol.shtml"
[13:57:10] <louiz’> found*
[13:57:28] <Kev> Yes, that needs changing.
[13:57:34] <louiz’> ok
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[14:47:41] <louiz’> Question on XEP 0045
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[14:47:56] <louiz’> when someone is in a muc, and a moderator set her affiliation to Outcast
[14:48:12] <louiz’> what should be done? Send an "unavailable" presence for the banned user?
[14:48:20] <louiz’> or a kick
[14:51:28] <louiz’> Oh, nevermind, it's well specified in the XEP
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[17:50:32] <MattJ> stpeter, is there no council today? am I /that/ bad at managing my calendar? :)
[17:51:57] <stpeter> hmm
[17:52:13] <stpeter> I didn't see a message about it from Kev
[17:53:04] <MattJ> Indeed, it's not like him to miss a meeting
[17:53:22] <stpeter> /me nods
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[03:09:27] <jonkri> hey people
[03:11:29] <jonkri> i want to start working on a privacy-aware social network site and i'm considering using xmpp as the messaging protocol. i have a couple of questions
[03:12:23] <jonkri> in what situations would you use pubsubhubbub or rdf instead of xmpp?
[03:13:17] <jonkri> also, would you send messages such as the registration request of an account (as well as the server replies) and login/logout messages over xmpp?
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