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[13:53:18] <Florob> Hy, should a AdHoc supporting entitiy answer to <iq type='get'><query xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info' node='http://jabber.org/protocol/commands'/></iq> (Note it's #info, not #items)
[13:54:45] <waqas> Florob: disco#info for specific commands, yes
[13:55:02] <waqas> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0050.html#example-5
[13:55:10] <Florob> waqas, yes, we do that. I mean the exact stanza
[13:55:27] <waqas> That isn't defined afaik
[13:55:59] <Florob> That's what I thought :/
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[14:00:36] <waqas> Aha, for the node="http://jabber.org/protocol/commands" we do have a defined identity of automation/command-list
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[14:35:12] <MattJ> Hmm, 25 days of voting seems a little excessive
[14:35:20] <MattJ> I can't wait that long anyway :/
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[14:56:56] <dwd> Wow. I think that's almost record Council applicants - mostly at the last minute.
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[14:58:00] <MattJ> I had to issue waqas with various threats and what not, but yes :)
[14:58:33] <Kev> Yet he applied anyway?
[14:58:34] <Tobias> i'm just printing posters to hang them all through germany ;) that'll give my app the special kick
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[14:59:07] <MattJ> Kev, he wouldn't have if I hadn't pestered him :)
[14:59:13] <MattJ> Well he would have, but sometime next week
[14:59:33] <dwd> MattJ, Much like you if I hadn't pestered you, then.
[14:59:41] <MattJ> Just like that
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[17:18:23] <yagiza> Hello!
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[17:21:36] <stpeter> hi yagiza
[17:22:20] <yagiza> Can any1 suggest me bugless XMPP server software?
[17:22:26] <stpeter> haha
[17:22:30] <johnny> no
[17:22:34] <stpeter> all software has bugs
[17:22:37] <johnny> prosody is the closest as far as i can tell
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[17:27:41] <Kev> Any bugs you know of in M-Link, I'd quite like to know, of course.
[17:28:22] <stpeter> :P
[17:32:08] <Kev> Not saying there aren't any, of course, but it would be good to know about them.
[17:33:28] <Florob> "[14:00:28] Any occupant is allowed to see your full JID"
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[17:33:50] <Kev> Florob: hmm?
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[17:34:12] <Florob> Kev, does that not count as a bug?
[17:34:23] <Kev> Not without me knowing what you're talking about :)
[17:35:27] <Florob> This room has been telling people it's non-anonymous for ages now. Which is a plain lie AFAIK
[17:35:35] <Kev> It's not anonymous.
[17:36:05] <Kev> What's the status code it's sending? I'll check the XEP.
[17:36:18] <Florob> Yes, but it's not everyone can see everyones JID either
[17:36:30] <Florob> let me check
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[17:36:38] <Kev> M-Link isn't sending that message, though, that's your client.
[17:36:46] <Kev> At least, this is what I believe to be the case.
[17:38:02] <Kev> Nope, you're right.
[17:38:15] <Kev> 100 is specifically non-anonymous, not 'not anonymous'
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[17:39:09] <Kev> stpeter: How would you feel about a note in the section on 100 saying that this is explicitly rooms of type non-anonymous, rather than rooms that aren't anonymous?
[17:40:00] <stpeter> /me checks
[17:40:09] <Kev> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#enter-nonanon specifically.
[17:40:58] <stpeter> um
[17:41:21] <stpeter> doesn't it already say that?
[17:41:29] <waqas> Isn't that pretty explicit already? "non-anonymous (i.e., which informs all occupants of each occupant's full JID as shown above)"
[17:41:29] <stpeter> I must be missing something
[17:41:35] <Kev> Yes, I think it does.
[17:41:53] <stpeter> gosh the latest version of Thunderbird is annoying me to no end
[17:41:56] <Kev> I've put it on my todo for next week, anyway.
[17:42:00] <Kev> stpeter: What in particular?
[17:42:22] <stpeter> Kev: tab behavior changed
[17:42:24] <Kev> I'm still waiting to find a client that a) works and b) is less annoying than tb.
[17:43:04] <stpeter> I've started using keyboard shortcuts more extensively, which helps a bit
[17:43:19] <Kev> I don't have particularly involved requirements for a mail client.
[17:43:30] <johnny> all the android xmpp clients suck :(
[17:43:35] <Kev> I just want to be able to use imap flags to tag messages, and press a button to archive them once I'm done.
[17:43:51] <johnny> k-9 is ok enough as a mail client i guess
[17:43:54] <yagiza> For me critical bugs now are: PEP not supported PEP declared to be supported but doesn't work PEP works but filtered notification doesn't work PEP works but item retract with "notify" attribute set to "1" or "true" doesn't send notification. Stream compression doesn't work
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[17:44:15] <Kev> yagiza: With M-Link?
[17:44:21] <johnny> well php works in prosody,, not sure about the filtered notification
[17:44:25] <johnny> pep*
[17:44:27] <yagiza> Which servers do not have at least those issues?
[17:44:52] <waqas> Prosody does do filtered notification.
[17:45:00] <johnny> ok.. how about the last 2 waqas ?
[17:45:28] <yagiza> Filteted notifications seems to be the most important part
[17:45:32] <waqas> It does do stream compression. Not sure about the item retract notification.
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[17:45:35] <johnny> well, prosody does it
[17:45:43] <Kev> yagiza: If any of those are bugs in M-Link, I've not seen them reported before.
[17:45:45] <johnny> does everything you said except maye the retract
[17:45:54] <yagiza> Ok
[17:46:15] <Zash> /me wants a FUSE based email client
[17:46:16] <johnny> also.. wher'es .8 waqas :(
[17:46:25] <waqas> In progress :)
[17:46:27] <Kev> Zash: Oh?
[17:46:37] <johnny> Zash, seems easy enough?
[17:46:42] <yagiza> So, prosody and M-Link are only XMPP servers which work more or less correctly?
[17:46:56] <Zash> johnny: orly
[17:47:36] <stpeter> yagiza: what features do you care about? many servers are RFC-compliant but don't have more advanced features
[17:47:36] <Zash> something like imapfs + a special outbox dir that dumps stuff on smtp
[17:47:57] <yagiza> stpeter, well...
[17:47:58] <Kev> yagiza: There may well be others, I've only played with three implementations particularly recently.
[17:48:11] <johnny> stpeter, well.. the problem is the popular serveres not being good
[17:48:19] <johnny> like ejabberd
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[17:49:08] <yagiza> stpeter, the most of mordern XEPs (and you are the author of them) require full support of PEP.
[17:50:00] <yagiza> stpeter, so if PEP is supported correctly, for me that server is good.
[17:50:04] <stpeter> yagiza: yes, I write all the XEPs but I can't write all the software (not that *that* would help! :)
[17:50:27] <yagiza> stpeter, I don't really interested in other "more advanced" features if any.
[17:51:13] <MattJ> yagiza, then any server should do... just poke the developers of any server if something doesn't work
[17:51:22] <yagiza> stpeter, I never asked anyone here to write software.
[17:51:32] <MattJ> and I can't speak for anyone else, but waqas or myself would fix any bugs in Prosody you find pretty quick :)
[17:52:08] <yagiza> yagiza, poking developers of eJabbers seems to be waste of time.
[17:52:16] <yagiza> eJabberd
[17:55:00] <johnny> MattJ, so what about the pep retract option?
[17:55:10] <johnny> looks like you support everything requested once you have that
[17:56:08] <Florob> It's not part of PEP IIRC, so I'd suspect it to be not supported
[17:56:32] <MattJ> So it seems
[17:56:43] <waqas> PEP retract does work of course.
[17:56:58] <waqas> It's the notify attribute he was talking about that I wasn't sure.
[17:57:07] <johnny> ah
[17:57:19] <MattJ> It's not in the PEP XEP
[17:58:24] <waqas> Okay, we always notify, and don't look for the notify attribute.
[17:58:37] <waqas> Which seems like the reasonable thing to do until we get full pubsub.
[17:58:52] <MattJ> +1
[18:00:27] <yagiza> waqas, what do you mean by "reasonable thing to do until we get full pubsub"?
[18:01:01] <waqas> yagiza: We do what we are supposed to do. When you retract a PEP item, your contacts are notified :)
[18:02:26] <yagiza> But XEP-0060 says that it needs to be done when notify="1" or "true"
[18:04:32] <waqas> We don't implement the entire XEP-0060, just what is needed for PEP.
[18:11:28] <MattJ> yagiza, PEP (XEP-0163) only requires certain specific features of pubsub (XEP-0060), plus specifies roster-based access control, etc.
[18:12:29] <yagiza> waqas, ok. But that way is better than one in the latest versions of eJabberd...
[18:12:51] <yagiza> MattJ, yes, IC
[18:12:58] <MattJ> I'm not going to say anything about the latest versions of ejabberd :)
[18:13:08] <waqas> yagiza: The only required features in XEP-0060 are 'publish' and 'subscribe'. Even retract is optional.
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[18:19:52] <Florob> well, delete is also required I think ;)
[18:20:56] <waqas> Florob: Is it? See http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#features :)
[18:21:33] <waqas> Do any servers other than Prosody do filtered notifications by the way?
[18:21:54] <MattJ> I assumed all except ejabberd... they don't?
[18:22:24] <waqas> I couldn't find any others making use of entity caps hashes when I wrote our implementation (though I think someone mentioned Jabber XCP doing it).
[18:23:09] <waqas> Well, openfire did (though they got the hashing wrong at the time, so...)
[18:23:26] <Kev> waqas: M-Link does filtered notifs.
[18:23:37] <Florob> waqas, 5. Recommended Defaults A PEP service MUST: * Support the node discovery, node creation, node deletion, publish item, subscribe, unsubscribe, and item retrieval use cases specified in XEP-0060.
[18:24:06] <waqas> We do all those
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[18:24:24] <Florob> waqas, yes. My point it "node deletion" is in the list, so yes it's required for PEP
[18:24:31] <waqas> Ah, right.
[18:25:05] <waqas> Kev: So it does do caps hashes now?
[18:25:32] <yagiza> Well... And where can I get that M-Link thing?
[18:25:42] <johnny> yagiza, you have to buy it
[18:25:45] <Kev> waqas: I've never touched the PEP code, I couldn't say.
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[18:26:43] <waqas> Kev: Well, filtered-notification depends on it, and M-Link didn't do that some months ago.
[18:26:50] <Kev> waqas: are you asking if it verifies the hashes or not? dwd would be the one to answer that.
[18:26:50] <waqas> yagiza: http://www.isode.com/products/m-link.html
[18:27:51] <yagiza> If M-Link is not available for free, I dn't think I'll find a lot of servers powered by M-Link around here.
[18:27:53] <waqas> I wonder what direction ejabberd would go. They were doing legacy caps, and now they seem opposed to filtered-notification entirely.
[18:28:10] <yagiza> So, we just can forget about M-Link existence.
[18:28:22] <Kev> yagiza: Well, you'll find *some* servers running it ;)
[18:28:28] <waqas> yagiza: Your messages are going through M-Link right now :)
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[18:29:15] <johnny> hmm.. you know something is expensive when they don't even list the price in an obvious way
[18:29:20] <Kev> waqas: Two M-Links, in fact.
[18:29:28] <Kev> To get to me, anyway.
[18:29:44] <yagiza> Ok. My task now is to find as many as I can servers with correct implemented PEP to recommend for using with my client.
[18:30:35] <yagiza> So, I'll look around the internet for prosody and M-Link powered XMPP servers...
[18:31:01] <MattJ> Curiosity: what for?
[18:31:07] <MattJ> Oh, to recommend for use
[18:31:23] <Kev> thiessen.im, jabber.org, I'm sure there are lots more Prosodies.
[18:31:56] <MattJ> http://www.jabberes.org/servers/
[18:32:08] <MattJ> No way to sort by server type :/
[18:34:30] <waqas> That page also has private servers :/
[18:34:46] <MattJ> Really?
[18:35:37] <waqas> It has e.g., Remko's el-tramo.be
[18:36:27] <Kev> I *think* that has open registration.
[18:37:30] <MattJ> Intentionally? :)
[18:38:24] <MattJ> There's still someone using prosody.im regularly that I don't even know - I left registration open by mistake once for a while
[18:38:45] <MattJ> I've often pondered telling him so, but he's doing no harm so he still doesn't know :)
[18:40:16] <waqas> From about a year back in jabber@: [02:57:37] <waqas> naw: Is that list supposed to include private servers? [03:01:52] <naw> that list lists the servers of the old jabber.org list, plus servers that asked to be included, plus servers that are on the xmpp.org list [03:02:35] <Flo> waqas, that's why I usually refer to http://xmpp.org/services/ rather than to jabberes.org
[18:41:01] <Kev> MattJ: What doesn't he know? That he's using prosody.im? :)
[18:41:30] <MattJ> Well I'm assuming he doesn't know it's not an open server
[18:41:50] <MattJ> It's quite possible (even likely) that he doesn't know Prosody is software rather than a service :)
[18:47:54] <yagiza> I'd prefere this one: http://jabberworld.info/%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%8E%D1%89%D0%B8%D1%85_%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85_%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2_Jabber
[18:48:29] <yagiza> But it doesn't recognize neither prosody nor M-Link... (T_T)
[18:48:38] <yagiza> And
[18:48:48] <yagiza> It cannot determine PEP support
[18:49:06] <MattJ> http://jabberworld.info/Список_работающих_публичных_серверов_Jabber
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[18:49:10] <MattJ> Whoops
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[18:53:24] <waqas> yagiza: That misses some data by the way, e.g., thiessen.* are also available on port 80.
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[18:55:56] <dwd> waqas, We do filtered notifications, although under the hood, the released versions do filtered-auto-subscribe, really. I may manage to change this. :-)
[18:59:57] <dwd> yagiza, And we honour, I think, the notify option to retract, but it's off by default (and by fiat, in current releases).
[19:00:31] <dwd> yagiza, If you do want to play with a pre-release variant of M-Link specifically for tinkering with fuller PEP, then let me know.
[19:01:05] <dwd> Oh. "we" == Isode M-Link. Just in case that's not clear.
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[19:11:26] <yagiza> dwd, let you know that I wanna try it! (^_^)
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[21:34:52] <justin> with pubsub, is there a way to receive the last X items and subscribe in a single step?
[21:35:25] <justin> i only see a note about receiving the last published item (6.1.7)
[21:49:39] <stpeter> hmm
[21:49:40] <stpeter> yeah
[21:49:54] <stpeter> I've had several requests for that feature
[21:50:21] <stpeter> "subscribe-and-retrieve"
[21:50:52] <MattJ> Is there anything someone *hasn't* requested pubsub be capable of? :)
[21:50:58] <stpeter> no :)
[21:51:32] <stpeter> it slices, it dices!
[21:52:35] <Tobias> how often have you heard "auto-unsubscribe"? so it automatically unsubscribes when it receives offline presence?
[21:52:48] <MattJ> That's in isn't it?
[21:52:57] <Tobias> MattJ: i don't know :)
[21:53:01] <Tobias> MattJ: if it is, yay :)
[21:53:14] <MattJ> Maybe yay :)
[21:53:24] <justin> yeah, it's there. temporary subscriptions
[21:54:35] <MattJ> justin, btw, you're using your own server code I assume? :)
[21:54:54] <justin> what i'm worried about is the subscribe and retrieve not being atomic. chance of dups
[21:55:24] <justin> yes, my own code here
[21:55:45] <justin> we have a lot of actions that aren't using xep-60. so lately i've been trying to conform to those flows
[21:55:52] <MattJ> Let me know when you get tired of C++ then
[21:56:48] <MattJ> Probably an attribute to say how many last items you want would do, no?
[21:57:30] <justin> yes, that's probably the most legal approach
[21:59:35] <justin> is anyone using pubsub to maintain a list of updatable items?
[22:00:45] <stpeter> sigh, my main accomplishment for today was keeping my inbox from going back over 500 emails -- too much communication :)
[22:01:00] <justin> that is, pubsub events could indicate not only new items coming in, but also changes to ones you may have already received
[22:01:18] <justin> and perhaps even moving them around (if the pubsub item stream is an ordered list)
[22:02:27] <stpeter> bbiab
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[22:03:36] <Tobias> justin: i'm also writing an app which has comments on issues. i thought that pubsub would mostly be useful for updates and get the current list via IQ
[22:04:20] <Tobias> if one would use only pubsub one would always have to push the whole list of comments as entry to pubsub, and get the latest item on subscribe
[22:04:33] <Tobias> but that would blow updates on the comments up in size
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[22:05:39] <justin> you can request a list of items from pubsub
[22:06:24] <Tobias> and the updates would only include the new items?
[22:06:42] <justin> yes
[22:07:04] <justin> well, the problem, as i just mentioned, is that you can't get X items and subscribe in one step
[22:07:57] <justin> so there is a race condition, where if you subscribe first and request second, right as someone adds a comment, then you might end up getting that comment as a new push as well as in the initial list. so, duplicated
[22:08:10] <justin> and if you request first and subscribe second, you could potentially miss a comment
[22:08:23] <Tobias> right
[22:10:28] <justin> maybe the current solution to this is to subscribe first, then get a list, and use item ids to avoid dups
[22:10:56] <Tobias> at least that way you don't lose things
[22:12:10] <Tobias> i think pubsub is already quite large..maybe one should put new enhancements on that in extra XEPs
[22:12:55] <Tobias> kind of like H.265 profiles, one could have pubsub profiles for different levels of complexity and features you need
[22:13:26] <MattJ> +1, that would be nice
[22:13:36] <MattJ> The problem is where to draw the lines :)
[22:14:17] <Tobias> and in what colour to draw it
[22:15:18] <MattJ> !bikeshed
[22:15:21] <MattJ> Bah, no HAL :)
[22:15:40] <Zash> /me thows crayons at MattJ
[22:15:41] <johnny> where's SAL MattJ ...
[22:15:51] <MattJ> johnny, over there
[22:16:11] <MattJ> Just requiring me to take an afternoon off "work" to be completed :)
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[22:17:01] <Tobias> MattJ: one way is to fill the profile xeps up with updates until they reach a certain size :) that would end up in relatively small XEPs
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[22:17:42] <Kev> MattJ: SAL == Riddim, right?
[22:18:07] <MattJ> The Riddim version of HAL, yeah
[22:18:13] <Tobias> practical wise it would be nice to have application related profiles
[22:18:46] <MattJ> Kev, the only things missing now are room admin commands and the sandbox
[22:18:53] <MattJ> Then I'm switching
[22:19:03] <Kev> Is SAL in the Riddim repo?
[22:19:12] <MattJ> No
[22:19:17] <Kev> :(
[22:19:27] <MattJ> SAL isn't much more than a config file right now :)
[22:19:28] <Tobias> then again all pubsub applications are largely alike
[22:19:51] <MattJ> There are parts of the code I'll port from HAL that I don't think shall be public though, not much anyone else would want
[22:24:31] <Tobias> MattJ: probably it would be best to just let current XEP-0060 become final and put new features related to that in a new XEP
[22:28:44] <Kev> It would be best if half on current 60 was in a different XEP.
[22:28:54] <Kev> All the PEP stuff, for a start :)
[22:29:00] <Tobias> i think the line for H.265 profiles are various performance requirements on HW, however i think it that doesn't work for pubsub
[22:29:18] <Tobias> Kev: is PEP already i a different XEP?
[22:29:21] <Tobias> *isn't
[22:29:31] <Kev> No, it was all merged into 60
[22:29:38] <Tobias> ahh :)
[22:30:20] <Tobias> MattJ: i bet some xmpp related company would like it if we'd put all the RAM intensive features in a different XEP :P
[22:30:34] <MattJ> I doubt it would make much difference :)
[22:31:02] <MattJ> bbiab
[22:32:00] <Kev> gn
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[22:32:11] <Tobias> n8
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[23:12:34] <justin> xep 60 mentions using result set management but i don't see a real use of it
[23:12:54] <justin> server returns partial results with rsm data, but there's no example of how a user would request a page
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[00:28:58] <Lirodon> hey
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[00:37:18] <Lirodon> hello
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